Manfred's Presentation

I have discovered a pair of Canterbury, used FS, about new not yet fully started up, in Spain (Oviedo, nice place to go for them and some fun also ...), for some 9000 €URO


Are they deserving that price tag, in your opinion? ...  

Do they need a very big room to breathe adequately? ...
 

reirato escreveu:

I have discovered a pair of Canterbury, used FS, about new not yet fully started up, in Spain (Oviedo, nice place to go for them and some fun also ...), for some 9000 €URO


Are they deserving that price tag, in your opinion? ...  

Do they need a very big room to breathe adequately? ...

They are very big speakers, twice as big as one of my speakers and mine are much larger than the average floorstander.
You need space to position them and you must obviously be single or qualifying for divorcee...
But if I am not mistaken the Canterburys' ports can be sealed and this will help performance in "difficult" rooms.

For that amount I think you can do much better — performance wise — but it depends on your expectations and the "sound" you are looking for.

R

reirato escreveu:

I have discovered a pair of Canterbury, used FS, about new not yet fully started up, in Spain (Oviedo, nice place to go for them and some fun also ...), for some 9000 €URO


Are they deserving that price tag, in your opinion? ...  

Do they need a very big room to breathe adequately? ...
 

Wow, Reirato! I'm relatively new to Tannoy and never heard the Canterbury, but they are the most beautiful Tannoy Prestige speakers imho and the speaker of my dreams!

 

Jim Smith, author of "Get Better Sound" uses them in his reference system. And Jim is familiar to almost every speaker brand as he does "voicing" of custom systems as a business. He was US importer of Avantgarde Acoustics (and won some best-sound-of-the-show awards with these beasts, imagine that!) and sales representative for Magnepan.

http://www.aca.gr/index/hiend/hiendNewsEvents?row=2031 (click on the picture to enlarge)

They sure "breathe" in a big room, but Werner told me that Paul Mills develops every Prestige speaker model in a 25 sqm room, even the Westminster.

Werner knows all Tannoy models, and he likes the Glenair 15 much more than the Canterbury. But Glenair has a tulip waveguide (TW) tweeter instead of the much more expensive pepperpot tweeter of the Canterbury. TW speakers are intended to be used with powerful solid state or stable tube amps while the pepperpot speakers are less demanding and generally a better match for tube amps.

If you can listen to the Canterbury (at best with your own electronics), I would not miss that! With a matching amp they sure sound gorgous. Tannoys need a long time to break in, so if they are quite new they can sound still a little hard, stiff and coloured.
My own Turnberry were 3 years old when I bought them but obviously they were played not much and only at low levels. They became better and better for months.

 

Cheers Manfred

Don't forget that Tannoy are DC (coaxial) speakers so phase coherence is superior to most other speakers, so the imaging is very good. The 15 inchers are generally a world of their own, they "couple" better to the air than small cones (which "perforate" holes in the air  )
and therefore can create an incredible soundstage and sense of space, and good, deep and taut bass of course without effort.

That's not "sound" but accuracy.

15'' are adequate for bass reproduction but in the Tannoys they "play" much higher than they should (crossing frequency is at 1.1kHz).
I wouldn't spend such an amount of money on a 2 way speaker.

R

mannitheear escreveu:

Don't forget that Tannoy are DC (coaxial) speakers so phase coherence is superior to most other speakers, so the imaging is very good. The 15 inchers are generally a world of their own, they "couple" better to the air than small cones (which "perforate" holes in the air  )
and therefore can create an incredible soundstage and sense of space, and good, deep and taut bass of course without effort.

That's not "sound" but accuracy.

Smart thoughts! ...  Wise and well worked out reflexions, indeed.
 

Myself, with my own KEFs 103/4

experienced that feature whilst in a smaller degree of luxuriousness! ...
 

reirato escreveu:

I have discovered a pair of Canterbury, used FS, about new not yet fully started up, in Spain (Oviedo, nice place to go for them and some fun also ...), for some 9000 €URO


Are they deserving that price tag, in your opinion? ...  

Do they need a very big room to breathe adequately? ...
 

Já estás com ideias?  


 

António José da Silva escreveu:

reirato escreveu:

I have discovered a pair of Canterbury, used FS, about new not yet fully started up, in Spain (Oviedo, nice place to go for them and some fun also ...), for some 9000 €URO


Are they deserving that price tag, in your opinion? ...  

Do they need a very big room to breathe adequately? ...
 

Já estás com ideias?  


 

 

As coisas,

que me vais trazer foram pensadas para morar em cima delas!!?? ...
 

E as Blumenhofer?

ricardo onga-ku escreveu:

15'' are adequate for bass reproduction but in the Tannoys they "play" much higher than they should (crossing frequency is at 1.1kHz).
I wouldn't spend such an amount of money on a 2 way speaker.

R

Ricardo,
you're so right - in theory.  

If I had the money, I would sure go for a 15 inch Tannoy.

And I have yet heard a Geithain ME 801K in a sophisticated setup...

But, it seems I'm a Tannoy fanboy and lost für competitors.  



BTW, which speakers do you use in your beautiful setup?  

Can't identify them. And what are the speakers of your dreams?

Just curious,

Manfred

António José da Silva escreveu:

E as Blumenhofer?

Essas têm o tampo de cima a escorregar para o lado de trás, tenho que inventar uns calços para apoiar os ST!? ...
 

Mas leste doutra maneira o que escrevi (não desgostava da ideia... mas os €€€...), eu queria dizer coisas pensadas pelo constructor! ...
 

 

Pensava que ias comprar as Tannoy.

António José da Silva escreveu:

Pensava que ias comprar as Tannoy.

Estás no topico do Manfred, so......



Manfred :
"If i was a rich man, yada do da ya da do....."  

Milton escreveu:

António José da Silva escreveu:

Pensava que ias comprar as Tannoy.

Estás no topico do Manfred, so......

Continuei a pensar que o reirato fosse comprar as Tannoy.  

António José da Silva escreveu:

Milton escreveu:

António José da Silva escreveu:

Pensava que ias comprar as Tannoy.

Estás no topico do Manfred, so......

Continuei a pensar que o reirato fosse comprar as Tannoy.  

E ele era homem para isso...

Milton escreveu:

E ele era homem para isso...

Para isso e muito mais, para além disso, o homem não para.  

António José da Silva escreveu:

Milton escreveu:

E ele era homem para isso...

Para isso e muito mais, para além disso, o homem não para.  

Não para!?... Para, para!!
Agora vou dormir a sesta que o tempo fez-me sono!!
 

Adeus!...
 

 

mannitheear escreveu:

ricardo onga-ku escreveu:

15'' are adequate for bass reproduction but in the Tannoys they "play" much higher than they should (crossing frequency is at 1.1kHz).
I wouldn't spend such an amount of money on a 2 way speaker.

R

Ricardo,
you're so right - in theory.  

If I had the money, I would sure go for a 15 inch Tannoy.

And I have yet heard a Geithain ME 801K in a sophisticated setup...

But, it seems I'm a Tannoy fanboy and lost für competitors.  



BTW, which speakers do you use in your beautiful setup?  

Can't identify them. And what are the speakers of your dreams?

Just curious,

Manfred

Hello Manfred,

My speakers are an old pair of 3-way Spendor SP9/1 floorstanders, a BBC-style design from the mid 90s, reasonably good but certainly not perfect.

As for the speaker of my dreams, it would have to be a 4-way box (low-bass drivers could each have it's own separate box) with wide baffle for controlled directivity and all cone drivers in a sealed box for lower harmonic distortion and better transient response.
Unfortunatelly sealed-box speakers are out of fashion these days, as are wide baffle boxes...

Cheers,
R

ricardo onga-ku escreveu:

... ...
As for the speaker of my dreams, it would have to be a 4-way box ... ...
R

Like these I use in my all vintage rig? ...

 

reirato escreveu:

ricardo onga-ku escreveu:

... ...
As for the speaker of my dreams, it would have to be a 4-way box ... ...
R

Like these I use in my all vintage rig? ...

 

Não exactamente...  
Não consigo perceber se essas colunas têm 4 vias ou altifalantes em caixa selada mas a face não é larga.
Além disso duvido que essas colunas tenham o volume necessário e provavelmente também não têm a superfície de radiação adequada para uma reprodução correcta dos graves e sub-graves.

R



P.S.: essas colunas são vintage?

Not exactly...
I can't understand from the image if those speakers are a 4-way design nor if all drivers are in a sealed box, and the baffle isn't wide either.
Besides I doubt those speakers have enough box volume or radiation surface area for an adequate reproduction of bass and sub-bass frequencies.

(Sorry, Manfred...after all this is your topic.)

Currently I'm trapped in a kind of infinite loop with 2 different sounding amps. When I replace the Reussenzehn Tube Slave S with the tiny SMSL SA-98, I like the sound of the Class-D Amp for its spatial stability, the tight and deep bass and the overall fresh and clear sound. But after a few hours I get a bit tired of the sound and feel it's a bit clinical, lacks timbral diversity and I get uncomfortable. When I switch then back to the Reussenzehn I'm surprised that it presents the same amount of detail and the bass is almost as tight and just as deep.  But then, a few days later I think: hm, I'm curious how amazing would that sound with the SMSL? And the story starts again.

I guess that I'm fooled by the supposed more detailed presentation of the SMSL but then get tired of its flaws.

mannitheear escreveu:

Currently I'm trapped in a kind of infinite loop with 2 different sounding amps. When I replace the Reussenzehn Tube Slave S with the tiny SMSL SA-98, I like the sound of the Class-D Amp for its spatial stability, the tight and deep bass and the overall fresh and clear sound. But after a few hours I get a bit tired of the sound and feel it's a bit clinical, lacks timbral diversity and I get uncomfortable. When I switch then back to the Reussenzehn I'm surprised that it presents the same amount of detail and the bass is almost as tight and just as deep.  But then, a few days later I think: hm, I'm curious how amazing would that sound with the SMSL? And the story starts again.

I guess that I'm fooled by the supposed more detailed presentation of the SMSL but then get tired of its flaws.

Hello Manfred,

I think the differences in "presentation" you detect are probably due to a different tonal balance; "timbral diversity" (whatever that means) is either a quality of the recorded sound or "distortions"/"colorations" produced by the speakers and the electronics.

I wonder if that Reussenzehn Tube Slave S is a competent design...

R

ricardo onga-ku escreveu:

mannitheear escreveu:

Currently I'm trapped in a kind of infinite loop with 2 different sounding amps. When I replace the Reussenzehn Tube Slave S with the tiny SMSL SA-98, I like the sound of the Class-D Amp for its spatial stability, the tight and deep bass and the overall fresh and clear sound. But after a few hours I get a bit tired of the sound and feel it's a bit clinical, lacks timbral diversity and I get uncomfortable. When I switch then back to the Reussenzehn I'm surprised that it presents the same amount of detail and the bass is almost as tight and just as deep.  But then, a few days later I think: hm, I'm curious how amazing would that sound with the SMSL? And the story starts again.

I guess that I'm fooled by the supposed more detailed presentation of the SMSL but then get tired of its flaws.

Hello Manfred,

I think the differences in "presentation" you detect are probably due to a different tonal balance; "timbral diversity" (whatever that means) is either a quality of the recorded sound or "distortions"/"colorations" produced by the speakers and the electronics.

I wonder if that Reussenzehn Tube Slave S is a competent design...

R

Hello Ricardo,

with "timbral diversity" I wanted to express the ability to reproduce the timbral difference of instruments. In this regard the Reussenzehn is better than the SMSL.

I'm not sure about the design of the Reussenzehn, too. There are no measurements available.

Although I didn't like some of your thoughts very much at first, you did make me rethink some things and to have a little bit more critical point of view. Thank you! 

Cheers
Manfred

As you can see from this chart, many of the subjective qualities of sound - like "air", "metal", "punchy", "warn" - are directly impacted by frequency balance (see bottom row of the chart):

http://www.independentrecording.net/irn/resources/freqchart/main_display.htm

In such cases, having access to measurements does help us to understand and correlate what we hear with the frequency reponse one is getting from equipment/systems.

Cheers,
Ricardo

Great chart!

Now, some heresy...

Although I admire Bill Evans very much, I never got connected to this famous recording:



My impression:
The audience seems uninterested, I do not understand what Bill Evans plays, Scott LaFaro is completely disconnected and Paul Motian seems to have taken too much valium.

Please, nobody should feel offended by my singular and controverse perception, but I really don't know why I cannot realize why this particular recording is so famous. Perhaps due to the so-so sonics of the cheap "Mikulski" pressing?

 

I really don't know!

Cheers
Manfred

mannitheear escreveu:

Please, nobody should feel offended....

I feel offended  

 


I have the Analogue Productions edition, and music ans sound are just to die for. I think this pressing could help changing your mind and avoid some more of this.... 

 

António José da Silva escreveu:

mannitheear escreveu:

Please, nobody should feel offended....

I feel offended  

 


I have the Analogue Productions edition, and music ans sound are just to die for. I think this pressing could help changing your mind and avoid some more of this.... 

 

The Analoge Productions edition is no more available.

Have other LP's from A.P. and they are very good, indeed.

Try to get it, you will "see" it under a complete new light. I acquired my from my good friend and member of the AAP, Jorge.

http://farmvinyl.blogspot.pt/


I don't know if he has any copies left.

mannitheear escreveu:

Now, some heresy...

Although I admire Bill Evans very much, I never got connected to this famous recording:



My impression:
The audience seems uninterested, I do not understand what Bill Evans plays, Scott LaFaro is completely disconnected and Paul Motian seems to have taken too much valium.

Please, nobody should feel offended by my singular and controverse perception, but I really don't know why I cannot realize why this particular recording is so famous. Perhaps due to the so-so sonics of the cheap "Mikulski" pressing?

Have you tried the Original Jazz Classics CD remaster?
It sounds very nice.

R



P.S.: I believe there used to be an OJC vinyl edition too.

ricardo onga-ku escreveu:

P.S.: I believe there used to be an OJC vinyl edition too.

That's probably the one that makes him dislike the album so much.  

Tannoy heaven ...  

Hi  Manfred!
 
I had just finished comissioning my Tannoy's, ST-50 over the Blumenhofer's, Fun 17.
 
And starting to experience some new sensations with them, definitely there is something new in the air!? ...
Starting to digest these new feelings...
 
 

reirato escreveu:

Hi  Manfred!
 
I had just finished comissioning my Tannoy's, ST-50 over the Blumenhofer's, Fun 17.
 
And starting to experience some new sensations with them, definitely there is something new in the air!? ...
Starting to digest these new feelings...
 
 

Hello Reirato,

didn't you want to use the ST-50 with Tannoy? How do they change the sound?

Cheers
Manfred

I will start his answer by saying that his dog left house  

Rui Mendes escreveu:

I will start his answer by saying that his dog left house  

..never to be seen again.

Listened to digital? 

mannitheear escreveu:

Listened to digital? 

What are you saying Manfred? Who is listening to the Devils format?   Tell me and he will by banned forever from our forum...  

GIFSoup

mannitheear escreveu:

...

Although I admire Bill Evans very much, I never got connected to this famous recording:



My impression:
The audience seems uninterested, I do not understand what Bill Evans plays, Scott LaFaro is completely disconnected and Paul Motian seems to have taken too much valium.
...
I really don't know!

Cheers
Manfred

Hi Manfred,

actually i'm listening "Waltz for Debby", and thinking to myself... about what pulls someone to dislike this album. Of course, it's not a question of pressing, record quality or even system !!!... because this album is a highlight of the jazz trio, even if he is eard on a MP3 Pocket player... as for all musical masterpieces !!!...

The question is to understand, what's goin on, between these three guys... because they are not making just music... they are making a total REVOLUTION !!!... and after them, the jazz trio will not be the same anymore...

Scott LaFaro since the previous albums "Portrait in Jazz and Explorations", have exploded, the task of the bass on a jazz trio,... he does not make anymore, only a rythmic task, the so called "walking bass", but he creates the dialogue with the soloist... and provocates him, both on harmony and melody, doing a sheet of improvisation lanes... what maybe, disturbes you... because is far away from the "swinging" classicism of Oscar Peterson and Duke Ellington trios...

This way of playing, the so called "interplay", grows in that album because Paul Motion, starts to make the same thing that does LaFaro and, thank's to this!... there are no rythmic section on "Waltz for Debby", but just three guys, making one of the most exciting and fucking trio's music, that human beings have heard, for so long !!!... so suddenly, there are no more soloist anymore also !!!... just improvisation around the "theme"!!!... and this creates magic, trouble and becomes endless invocational power !!!... at the point that, many décades after this album, Brad Mehldau will make his trilogy "The Art of the Trio", applying the same principles.

You may not like the "apparent" desintegration of the harmony!... but if you exceed this point, the musical landscapes that you're going to find, are far beyond any expectation !!!...

Make a try... after these words!

Cheers

   

TD124 escreveu:

mannitheear escreveu:

... Although I admire Bill Evans very much, I never got connected to this famous recording: My impression: The audience seems uninterested, I do not understand what Bill Evans plays, Scott LaFaro is completely disconnected and Paul Motian seems to have taken too much valium. ... I really don't know! Cheers Manfred

Hi Manfred, actually i'm listening "Waltz for Debby", and thinking to myself... about what pulls someone to dislike this album. Of course, it's not a question of pressing, record quality or even system !!!... because this album is a highlight of the jazz trio, even if he is eard on a MP3 Pocket player... as for all musical masterpieces !!!... The question is to understand, what's goin on, between these three guys... because they are not making just music... they are making a total REVOLUTION !!!... and after them, the jazz trio will not be the same anymore... Scott LaFaro since the previous albums "Portrait in Jazz and Explorations", have exploded, the task of the bass on a jazz trio,... he does not make anymore, only a rythmic task, the so called "walking bass", but he creates the dialogue with the soloist... and provocates him, both on harmony and melody, doing a sheet of improvisation lanes... what maybe, disturbes you... because is far away from the "swinging" classicism of Oscar Peterson and Duke Ellington trios... This way of playing, the so called "interplay", grows in that album because Paul Motion, starts to make the same thing that does LaFaro and, thank's to this!... there are no rythmic section on "Waltz for Debby", but just three guys, making one of the most exciting and fucking trio's music, that human beings have heard, for so long !!!... so suddenly, there are no more soloist anymore also !!!... just improvisation around the "theme"!!!... and this creates magic, trouble and becomes endless invocational power !!!... at the point that, many décades after this album, Brad Mehldau will make his trilogy "The Art of the Trio", applying the same principles. You may not like the "apparent" desintegration of the harmony!... but if you exceed this point, the musical landscapes that you're going to find, are far beyond any expectation !!!... Make a try... after these words! Cheers

Hello Paulo,

ths is a very thoughtful post, but it doesn't hit the point. I like Jazz in more free and not so harmonic forms, for example I did much enjoy Live concerts of Art Ensemble of Chicago and Vijay Iyer Trio. And I have a CD version of Sunday At the Village Vanguard which was recorded the other day - and I like it, too.
The pressing of Waltz for Debbie I have seems to distort the music (not the sound) in a way that most of the essence is lost. Anyway, you encourage me to try to get a adequate issue of this music.

Cheers Manfred

mannitheear escreveu:

Anyway, you encourage me to try to get a adequate issue of this music.

Cheers Manfred

Try the Analogue Production one, you will not be disappointed. But obviously, it´s very different to free.

António José da Silva escreveu:

Try the Analogue Production one, you will not be disappointed. But obviously, it´s very different to free.

I tried yet some ways to get a AP pressing but it's sold out.

While I didn't want a CD, I looked in Spotify and found 5 or 6 different versions of the album there. The best I could find actually allows a much better approach to the music than this particular LP, very strange.

Hope I get not banned from AAP now.

mannitheear escreveu:

Hope I get not banned from AAP now.

You won't get banned, but you will get a severe warning..  


 

António José da Silva escreveu:

pennitheear escreveu:

Hope I get not banned from AAP now.

You won't get banned, but you will get a severe warning..  


 

I see a battle here between mannitheear and AJS and a choice must be made...

I vote AJS out of AAP (after he returns my Bob Dylan's warped Mercy)  

António José da Silva escreveu:

But obviously, it´s very different to free.

Very tempting but a bit over the budget:  

http://dacapo-records.de/product_info.php/products_id/8255/language/en

These are the 45 RPM versions which are dynamically great and keep the listener fit and slim.

mannitheear escreveu:

António José da Silva escreveu:

But obviously, it´s very different to free.

Very tempting but a bit over the budget:  

http://dacapo-records.de/product_info.php/products_id/8255/language/en

These are the 45 RPM versions which are dynamically great and keep the listener fit and slim.

Thanks for the link.

TD124 escreveu:

Make a try... after these words!

Hi Paulo,

I did read your article over and over - and it's really great!

 

Be sure, I don't give up!

Cheers

António José da Silva escreveu:

Try the Analogue Production one, you will not be disappointed. But obviously, it´s very different to free.

A member of open-end-music forum sells his 2000+ LPs and voilà - he has the AP pressing of Waltz for Debbie. Hope I get it next week. 

Cheers